I have somehow ended up having a conversation about these topics with four different people in the last two days, so I decided it's time for a poll. Plus, POLL! What's not to love? Polls are FUN! I made it so no one can see who says what, so you can answer honestly, with no embarrassment, because I promise not to judge you, no matter what.
I know I used the dreaded radio buttons for some of the questions, but you can just answer with how you most often feel. (and if you're both and artist and a writer, or whatever, and the answers would be totally different, you can pick one medium if you want) It doesn't have to be for every time; I know there will always be outliers, and there is always space in the comments box if you want to explain. I have comments set to screened, but will reply (and thus unscreen) unless you say "keep screened" in your subject line or the comment itself.
[Poll #1527751]
I know I used the dreaded radio buttons for some of the questions, but you can just answer with how you most often feel. (and if you're both and artist and a writer, or whatever, and the answers would be totally different, you can pick one medium if you want) It doesn't have to be for every time; I know there will always be outliers, and there is always space in the comments box if you want to explain. I have comments set to screened, but will reply (and thus unscreen) unless you say "keep screened" in your subject line or the comment itself.
[Poll #1527751]
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In that way, it's possible that I, too, find comments influencing my writing (though I hadn't considered that). But I do know that even seemingly totally NON-concrit comments have made me a better writer. People gushing "I loved it when..." has made me go back and look at whether I am wording things differently in those places, or in some other way have better writing there (and not just some delicious kink, or Sam with his shirt off), and I've found yes often enough to let that improve my writing generally.
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Still! interesting.
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also. I sent you email. only today, though. :D
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I don't know if there's any way to capture this in a poll, but one thing I'm finding is that, as much as I still LOVE comments, the presence or absence of comments isn't quite as much of an emotional roller coaster as it used to be when I first started writing, and I am starting to be able to like/dislike my own fics independently of what other people thought of them. I guess that's progress of a sort?
Also: I miss you! I know we met Tuesday but we didn't get our Thursday hangout so it feels like I haven't seen you in forever, which is silly, but whatever. I don't see you until next Thursday?? DDDD:
*smishes*
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I am probably quite crap at capturing most things in a poll. Polls are hard. But that does sound like progress :D
*hugs*
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Recently, I participated in some anonymous fic exchanges, and I had to determine if my story was well-received by the number of comments garnered, and it made me extremely nervous. I didn't like it.
I also haven't finished anything that is I can post this month and I think those two things are directly related.
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And random sort of thingy on the "I'm ashamed to tell people I don't like my creative output"-question: I dunno if "ashamed" is what I feel? And massively editing and re-phrasing this, I think in the past when I try to say to others that I think I missed the mark, I don't always get straight answers, and I worry people think I am fishing for compliments, when I'm rather fishing for concrit, if that makes sense?
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w/r/t ashamed, I was thinking in terms of people not wanting anyone to know they had "low self-esteem". Like a woman I saw on a doc about Body Dimorphic Disorder, who was horrified at the thought of anyone finding out that she thought she was ugly. but what you say TOTALLY makes sense.
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I don't understand the question about fandom/character familiarity. If I'm not familiar with the fandom or characters I'm not interested in writing about them to start with.
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I was thinking mostly of like when I first started writing for SPN I was terrified of getting the voices wrong and didn't really like my fic until I had a lot of comments saying it was good. but now that I've written a billionty SPN stories, I feel confident about the voices, so I like it just because I like it, no need for outside confirmation. and I got used to that feeling. Then tried to write some Star Trek fic. eeep! Back to lack of confidence. So it's not that I am randomly picking a show I've never seen and trying to write for it. But that after writing in a fandom for a long time it feels very different than starting out.
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It's like you're nervous but excited and then you get kind of a floaty feeling when you know you're done with a fic. Even before it's off to beta, you know you're done with the majority of it.
Or maybe that's just me?
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I don't actually like that I have this target number of comments in my mind. But I cannot seem to stop myself from doing it.
feedback issues, I has them
On the one hand: feedback is lovely, it's an ego boost, and people like to comment on stuff they've enjoyed. So I leave comments on for those reasons, and because sometimes you can strike up great conversations that way.
On the other hand: I think not responding to feedback is, well, impolite, unless you specifically state somewhere that you don't do it. BUT. When I'm blessed with lots of feedback, I feel obliged to respond to all of it, and this is where the awkwardness comes in. Because it's really difficult to not repeat myself (which I hate doing) when responding, or else trying to think of something interesting to say, and I often end up feeling like an idiot and wondering if anyone really cares whether I acknowledge their feedback or not. And not in a 'my first world writerly problems' way--I don't need to feel popular; I just don't want to be rude!
There was a short period in 2007 when I DID turn off comments, and only accepted feedback via email (particularly for Big Bang). It was something of an experiment, but also mostly because of the above awkwardness. I did observe the feedback I received was ... not "better", but more detailed, and geared more toward points of interest that were also interesting to me as the writer. There was also much less feedback than I would probably have received if I'd left comments on, but this didn't bother me, because of the aforementioned detail/quality of the feedback I did receive. It was of interest in a cynical sense, though.
Bottom line: I like everything I write, because if I didn't like it I wouldn't write it in the first place, let alone post it. My general aim is to write the sort of thing I like to read--which is why I often go back and re-read my fic, even if it involves cringing and eye-rolling and occasionally, pointing and laughing.
... talk about overthinking it. I think I need a beer. And to get back to wrestling with the fic of the moment.
Re: feedback issues, I has them
I do sometimes find it exhausting if for some reason or another I have been away from my computer and there are 20 comments to answer at once. So i can totally see how, for the people who get four pages of comments on every fic within a few hours of posting, it seems unimaginably daunting. Especially with a job, or kids, or a partner, or all of the above.
I cannot bear the thought of not answering all my comments. I cannot bear the thought of turning off comments. So I really do not know what I would do if I suddenly became a must-read author.
...Or the kind of author that more people left feedback for. I do often wonder about things like reader:commenter ratios versus straight-up numbers of readers.
Re: feedback issues, I has them
Until quite recently I had no idea people had, like, strategies for when to post a fic. I generally tend to post before I go to bed, mostly because that's when I most often have a finished/tweaked fic ready to post. Plus it's nice to wake up to feedback. I don't get to check LJ at work unless I have my netbook and a lunch break, so generally I have a window of 2-3 hours a day to respond (before and after work). It's a little daunting sometimes. Then too, sometimes people leave such awesome feedback I kind of flail around trying to respond appropriately, and that takes time as well. Basically, I want to thank everyone individually for reading without sounding like a robot or an idiot, and that isn't always easy.
Reader:commenter ratios are intriguing. I am very very guilty of being a non-commenter, which is yet another reason I don't worry about comment counts--I figure for every one person commenting, there are at least three who don't. Occasionally, delicious bookmarks and PDF download stats are useful for the curious too, since hit counters are apparently bad taste these days.
Re: feedback issues, I has them
Based on some of the fics I've read that do have hit counters, I think for a lot of people, for every one person commenting there are 100 who don't. Or more. for others I think the ratio is a lot lower. And that is something that really fascinates me. But there is no way to study that at all without creating wank and bad feelings.
When I first came to LJ I got involved with a beta who was OBSESSIVE to a truly terrifying degree with marketing her (and as an extension my) fanfic. strict rules about days and times of posting, where/how to crosspost, and re-pimping in her own journal. A lot of it I didn't agree with, because there is a big difference between marketing and pushing yourself on people. But the result is that while I have a straightforward confidence about my skills as a writer (and I think a pretty good idea of where my strengths and weaknesses lie in that regard), I have no confidence at all in my skills as a poster. To the point that if I do not get an "expected" number of comments on a fic, my thought is never that it is not well-written, but that I should have posted a different day, time of day, to different comms. It's kind of insane. (or a lot insane)
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I virtually never use a beta, so some of them don't apply.
Others... if I'm struggling with a story and it went somewhere unexpected for me, I have reservations about it. If it's a new fandom, my confidence is MUCH lower.
And sometimes I like things better after I post them. Though I'm still on the fence about the J2 thing I posted this week-- I seriously thought about just burying that locally at my journal, and finally decided that there was an audience for it and put it up on the comms.
And there's the poem thingy I tried to write for
There have been a few in various fandoms where I do not understand why people go nuts over "that" fic as opposed to some other one I sweated blood over ("Icicle Palace" for Prison Break, and "Bedside Manners" for SPN). But sometimes through the comments I see what's resonating with other people, even if it wasn't clear to me (I probably shouldn't admit that!)
And it's true, my expectations for comments DO depend on the fandom. My first fandoms were Prison Break and SPN, and the readers really spoil you with thoughtful comments and meta. In one of my other, smaller fandoms, most of the comments tend more toward, "Loved it" or "Whee!" That took some getting used to!
As for the "cooking time" for a story... I tend to wait a day or so on longer stories, because I'll re-read and see if the flow/pace are good through to the end and if the conclusion is solid. Sometimes, those last few paragraphs get tweaked for exactly that reason.
Drabbles, on the other hand... some need to wait for exactly that reason, and others I just know are _done_. But all of the pace/flow/finality is much easier to see over that shorter form.
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In some ways I feel like even basic comments have made me a better writer in the craft sense, but in a LOT of ways they have made me a better fandom writer. I almost always read a handful (or more) of the comments on other people's fics that I love, and also on fics that I didn't love at all but that have lots of comments, because they are really informative w/r/t the pulse of fandom. And in the same way that you want to market an article to the specific magazine you're hoping to sell to, I want to market fanfic to the fandom I'm writing for. I write because I love writing and need it like breathing, but I write fanfic because I love the audience I have. Both in the sense that I love knowing I have an audience at all (in a way that most of my MFA colleagues do not) but also in the literal sense that I love many of the people who are reading my stories, and making them happy makes me happy. How do I know what makes them happy? comments. Which is to say, totally admit it! :D
I'm definitely with you on the lower confidence with a new fandom, thing. "voice" is very important to me, and I really need to feel like I have it right. Once I have written several fics in a fandom I feel like I've had conversations with the characters, and in the same way that I recognize my mom's voice on the phone, I recognize when I have the character's voice right.
If I get a beta, it is almost physically painful for me to sit on a fic once I've made edits. I am fascinated by people who can say, "Oh, I think I'll post that next week," or whatever. With the Valentine's Day fic I just wrote, I stalled and stalled on the writing, so that I wasn't actually done until I just had time to send it for beta, and edit, and then post on Valentine's day. I knew I would be totally freaking and would probably sabotage myself and post early. I do a little better with imposed posting dates, and can put it away and get it out again on posting day, because posting before is FORBIDDEN. But if it's just me? so hard. If I am posting sans beta, though, I do my best to leave it overnight or at least several hours, before I do my read-aloud self-beta on it.
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I find myself not being ashamed at all about admitting that comments play a large part in the overall satisfaction I feel about a vid. (And really, I'd like that not to be the case.. but there it is).
And my beta/feedback givers play a huge part in how I feel about a vid also. They can make me either feel confident about a vid that I'm not feeling so confident about or make me feel down about a vid that I was pretty previously feeling confident about. And that latter part is totally cool- in that I don't blame them for making me feel down, rather I'm down on myself for not being successful in my vid attempt. If that makes sense.
I sometimes wish I didn't care so much. It would be easier. But then if that was the case I probably wouldn't put so much effort into what I do in the first place. It's all part of the creative process. The highs and lows. Can't accept one and not the other I reckon. (That's what I tell myself anyway!*g*)
Interesting... :)
xx
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My betas can often get me to be more enthused about something I was unsure of, but seldom kill my joy in something I loved. (except specific sentences. Sometimes that happens. 99% of the time they are right and I was deluded when I thought it was wonderful)
I'm glad this stuff is interesting to others besides me! :D
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Comment numbers... don't really bother me (which is good because some of my things have teeny comment counts and some HUGE and I don't know why for any of them). Because I won't post until I'm happy enough. Maybe not rapturous, but solid enough so that I know I won't care if everyone hates (ie comment-ignores) it. :D :D :D
One of the interesting things from my latest story (which is wing-fic so DON'T READ IT :D) is that lots of people (a really high percentage) found it sad (even with a happy ending). My Big Bang was sad, but I knew it was (it made ME sad). This latest one... I guess was sadder than I realised. Which made me wonder if I have secret sadness I'm writing out by writing stories! I'm not sure even after wondering. But it was interesting to ponder.
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I have got to learn to be more of a tinkerer. That is one bad habit I have picked up through fanfic (and especially writing primarily short, one-shot PWPs): getting the goods done, and getting it out there. When the point of something is to get a visceral GUH or AWWWWW from someone, good writing is good enough. When one is trying to put together something longer, with plot and character arc (beyond moving from horny to satiated), fine-tuning a sentence so it carries just the subtext you want can make all the difference. I have always been the sort of person who did just enough homework to get the grades that would get me into the college I wanted, so I was not exactly starting from a perfectionist point. (though I have become the person who needs straight As, so there is hope for me yet with this novel)
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And because I have such a bad memory, when I go back and reread fic, bits of it are often a surprise for me, and I almost always get a warm glow of 'I wrote this, and it's good.' Unless it's stuff I wrote before a certain cut-off point, when I'm just incredibly shamed, because it seems I was writing badfic. But, the point where I think of my writing as getting readable pretty much coincides with the beginning of my time in SPN fandom, and I don't really pay attention to the fic before that, so it's okay.
Commentwise, it annoys me sometimes how dependent I am on them. I have an 'average amount of comments' that I get, which tends to go up or down a bit depending on length, rating and slashiness, and if something gets significantly less than that (like ET did) I begin to doubt it. When I reread ET, I was surprised that it wasn't as bad as I'd been assuming it was, and now I just feel kinda sorry for it. Like: 'I still love you! Even if no one else does!'
If I get more comments than I was expecting, on the other hand, it makes me like the fic more. I try not to do this, but it seems like my favourite fics are also the ones that have got the most comments, even though I'm sure I liked other fic more when I was writing it. But then, fandom reaction usually matches up with my gut feeling about something, so it's not like I'm constantly re-assessing all my fic.
Ugh, tl;dr, sorry.
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I have that same thing about a bad memory. I will sometimes forget whole fics. And the whole thing is a surprise.
I wish that I cared much less about comments, too. I don't think it's helpful. :( I can't think that lots of comments have ever made me like a fic more, but it has more than once made me more confident about a level of kinkiness that I've gone to.
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It's funny how much comments and "Views" do matter, even though it really should be all about how YOU feel about a finished piece of work.
There have been times when I've really liked something and no one gives it a blind bit of notice, and other times when I've thought something was a bit crap and people have loved it. Very odd.
What this has also made me think about is how eager I am to share my artwork/writings/whatever to complete strangers online, and yet I really hate it or hide them away when people in my real life want to see. For some reason reading a nice comment from a stranger means a lot more to me than if a family member told me something I'd drawn was good. That's odd isn't it? It shouldn't be like that.
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It's the same way for me about outfits. I can like something and feel comfortable in it, but I always feel better about it when I've had people tell me it looks good.
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and probably better...
MAN I LOVE YOUR ART LIEK SO MUCH, IT IS SO AWESOME!!! is pretty much what I always say about your art \o/
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AUUUUUUGH I HATE EVERYTHING D: D: D: D:
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♥
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I answered with my graphics in mind, because I generally like the stuff I make, whereas writing and everything related to it pretty much traumatizes me, so in the end I gave it up. I clicked on "something else" for the last question: I wouldn't say I don't care about comments at all, but getting two or twenty doesn't make much difference to me. Making graphics is primarily a form of relaxation for me, but since I make mostly icons, I'm pretty sure I would stop posting them if I never got any comments and do other things, such as only making wallpapers for my own use or something because people using them is kind of the point of icons.
Wow, that was a convoluted paragraph. :)
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Comments don't really matter much to me. They are nice to get, but I post almost exclusively in my journal or directly to whomever the story was written for, so I don't worry when I don't get a lot of feedback. I'm also an obsessive tinkerer, so probably three quarters of what I write never gets posted at all. Even if I do post a story, I sometimes go back a week or a month later and 'fix' it, because nothing is ever finished with me lol.
I do like reading comments for other authors, esp. my favorites. I like seeing what others get out of a story and comparing it to what I enjoyed.
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I've been having serious comma tinkering urges lately. I keep reading older stuff and seeing what a balls-up I made of comma usage. Especially on stuff i wrote before my intensive grammar class. I often don't hit edit, though I should. :D