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posted by [personal profile] rivers_bend at 10:45pm on 23/04/2009 under , ,

So if John found out about Adam when Adam was 12 and he was born in 1990 (what was up with that first 1992 thing? if he's in college, the 1990 must have been right, was I hearing things?) then John first met him sometime after September 2002. After Sam went to college. Right? (going by the canon that he was not in his second year when Dean came to fetch him) Am I doing the years right here?

If I am, then John found out about a new son just after he lost his 'youngest' son. At a time where (in my canon at least) Dean was angry with him for driving Sam away (even as he was angry at Sam for leaving), and so really he'd lost both his sons. And most likely blamed himself. and here he is, presented with a chance to try again. Even if it's just a couple weekends for a few years.

I absolutely love this. It makes John have so much more depth to me than he has had. I found his unremitting tragedy and angst supremely boring. But that he wanted this, saw the need for it in his life, wanted things to have been different for his boys (reinforcing the trophies he kept in a storage locker), it makes me happy.

OH, SHOW.
There are 29 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] tiffosis.livejournal.com at 06:03am on 24/04/2009
WORD.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:07am on 24/04/2009
I laugh out loud every time I see your icon :D
(deleted comment)
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:08am on 24/04/2009
so you did! :D

I am seriously in love with this storyline for John. Possibly as in love as I was with the hunter storyline for Mary.
ext_16765: (Dean)
posted by [identity profile] arabella-hope.livejournal.com at 06:11am on 24/04/2009
PAPA WIN. JUST. GFDHJSKL MY HEART.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:15am on 24/04/2009
Except for how he was actually right to raise Sam and Dean as he did, and wrong to raise Adam that way, given what he knew. CAN'T WIN FOR LOSING, PAPA, SO SORRY.

it totally breaks my heart. wonderfully.
ext_16765: (XXX | boobalicious)
posted by [identity profile] arabella-hope.livejournal.com at 06:17am on 24/04/2009
HE SURVIVED, OVER A HUNDRED YEARS OF HELL. AND TORMENT. WITHOUT BREAKING.

i THINK FANDOM KEEPS forgetting that tidbit.

And Dean just wants to be THAT and he couldn;t be and ghjdk his issues, OH GOD.
 
But, I feel John failed Adam utterly. Because he didn't teach the kid about hunting, in fact he kept Adam completely in the dark about what the world is really like, John signed Adam's death warrant.

John's got a lot of enemies and he left Adam defenseless.

Poor kid, he never stood a chance.
 
Oh, yes, I wholeheartedly concur. The delicious irony. In trying to get that second chance, to do what was right, he ended up doing the wrong thing entirely. There is no way for him to win. Give his boys the life Sam and Dean have had, or leave them totally vulnerable to a horrible death.

heartbreaking.
 
They are either doomed to living in the shadows or dying far too young. Either way, none of those boys get a shot at a happy life and that's just so damned tragic.

 
posted by [identity profile] vanillafluffy.livejournal.com at 06:47am on 24/04/2009
I think the choices John made were perfectly understandable. He raised Dean and Sam in "the life" because their mother was killed by evil; he knew that he might die fighting the demon, but his boys would be prepared to finish the fight. Adam's mother was alive and well, and looking around the house, she made a pretty good life for him. John believed he'd killed the threat that brought him together with Adam's mom, so why would he try to make a hunter out of Adam? He told Sam that he wished they could've had a normal life; he did his best to give that to his third son.

(The thing that gets me is that I SWEAR I've read that premise---John having a kid with a nurse he shacked up with. Not the end result, of course, but the basic idea? Oh yeah, they are reading lots of fan-fic in the writer's room!)
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:54am on 24/04/2009
I don't think he COULD make the right choices. There were no right choices to make. I believe much more in fate in the world of the show than I do IRL, and I think the cruel irony is that he couldn't win for losing. if he'd tried to raise Adam as a hunter that would have been the completely wrong choice. No perceivable reason for him to have done it.
 
posted by [identity profile] vanillafluffy.livejournal.com at 07:08am on 24/04/2009
I believe much more in fate in the world of the show than I do IRL
Back in the day, I used to LARP in the World of Darkness, which was vampires and werewolves and the like, and the source material gave guidelines about population, like you could get away with fifty vampires hunting in a city the size of New York, but not so much in a small town like Lawrence, Kansas. So the amount of weirdness that the boys run across, plus the idea that there is/was enough phenomenon to sustain a strong Hunter subculture---clearly, their world is a darker AU than ours.
 
posted by [identity profile] leviticus-lied.livejournal.com at 06:52am on 24/04/2009
I'm talking to ifyouweremine about John's characterization in the wake of this episode. I'm going to link her to this post, because I think it's the most favorable/just explanation so far.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:58am on 24/04/2009
He didn't always do the best with his boys, but I do think he did the best he could with what he had.
 
posted by [identity profile] leviticus-lied.livejournal.com at 07:13am on 24/04/2009
I agree. I always felt (and observed from John's interaction with the boys in S1, especially when he stepped out of a commanding role and debated about theories/possibilities* on relatively more equal terms) that John regretted the life his sons led. Their childhood caused them such obvious pain - and brought such strain to their relationship as brothers, to say nothing of their relationship with their father - that, if John could see a way around the training and revenge, he would have taken it. After all, he lived as a 'mundane' until his wife's death and expected a normal childhood for his boys, and suddenly could not provide that.

So. If he didn't think that hunting and revenge and the entire package was necessary, he would have wished for the boys to live normally. Sam stood up for himself and took that choice out of John's hands - thereby communicating loud and clear that John had made the wrong one - and Dean split off (a defection; the same message, perhaps, intentional or no, if Dean simply couldn't articulate it to his father's face or to himself).

After that conclusion (and now I'm obviously reaching), John may have harbored doubts (or allowed old doubts to resurface and gather strength) enough that when Adam's mom approached him, John viewed this 'new' family as a chance to make the 'correct' (as argued/demonstrated by Sam and Dean) choice.

Or something.


*If I recall correctly? Wow, I really hope I'm thinking of actual canon, instead of fic. Uh, there had to have been some scenes where John mostly hung back and watched his two boys, I'm getting a clear visual of that. Whatever.
 
posted by [identity profile] angstpuppy.livejournal.com at 07:10am on 24/04/2009
I was crunching numbers madly after the show, and I came up with this exact same thing and acutally told Mr. Pup.
Adam contacting John at twelve makes perfect sense cannon-wise. Sam-gone, Dean-angry, John-alone and questioning his fathering abilities.

Kripke is such a magnificent bastard, ain't he?
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:45pm on 24/04/2009
That he is. That. he. is.
 
posted by [identity profile] bitterbird.livejournal.com at 08:19am on 24/04/2009
yes this! I love this post!
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:46pm on 24/04/2009
yay! :D
 
posted by [identity profile] beckaandzac.livejournal.com at 11:16am on 24/04/2009
Yes! I was telling Lucy last night that this episode makes me feel like John was still a person after Mary's death, not just a burnt out shell. Which is not an impression canon has really given us much of before, and it makes him so much more interesting as a character!

(My JDM icon is like, the most un-John icon possible. Heh.)
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:49pm on 24/04/2009
well John was pretty ridiculously grinny in those pictures with the Milligans, so your icon is more canon now :D

I loved getting this glimpse of what happened to John when Sam left.
 
posted by [identity profile] eilan.livejournal.com at 12:00pm on 24/04/2009
Also, they mention that Adam is born in 1992... but say that John goes to Minnesota in 1990.. uhhh.. there is a whole year missing in there....
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:50pm on 24/04/2009
I have rewatched now, and the line is "He was born [murmur] 29th 1990, to Kate Milligan" but it sure as hell sounded like 1992 to me last night. Your point was definitely a point I made in my commentary post :D
 
posted by [identity profile] sadcypress.livejournal.com at 01:18pm on 24/04/2009
OH. THANK YOU. I never thought of this and it makes it SO much more interesting and BETTER.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:51pm on 24/04/2009
Sam leaving brought John to his senses a little bit. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] itsthedetails.livejournal.com at 02:00pm on 24/04/2009
I thought Sam said that Adam was born in 1992 at first as well, but after rewatching the scene a few times I think he says 1990 and then goes on to continue speaking and his next word is "to" so it makes it sound like 1992.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 02:53pm on 24/04/2009
I just rewatched and found the same thing! and Jared TOTALLY pauses there too, and I missed it.
 
posted by [identity profile] gunznammo2.livejournal.com at 05:36pm on 24/04/2009
It's that damn Winchester curse rearing its ugly head once again.
 
posted by [identity profile] lila-blue-b.livejournal.com at 10:38pm on 25/04/2009
*nods* That's such a good point! *seconds your "OH, SHOW."*

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