rivers_bend: (women: tattooed woman)
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posted by [personal profile] rivers_bend at 03:50pm on 20/07/2013 under , ,
... so I just found this post in one of my tabs, dated July 13th, and apparently I stopped in the middle of writing it, and I am not totally sure where it was going, but I'm just gonna post it like this, because at least it says something...

My mom is fascinated with slash, and why her lesbian daughter who has zero interest in dick personally is so interested in writing about it, so I find myself thinking about the whys more often than I might if no one was questioning me. I was just looking at this gifset and the tags (whatup, [personal profile] balefully), and was struck with how much sexual freedom that represents. The freedom to sit, drooling for their genitals, at the feet of two people standing over you, is something so politically loaded for women, that it almost feels impossible. And, yes, what I'm writing is fiction, but I tend to write stories set in our world in our time, and the reality of that setting is that women and girls have grown up dealing with a fuckton of shaming (and often violence) around female sexuality. In an ideal world, I'd be able to fling off the weight of that and write characters who navigate not only the bedroom but their whole lives without feeling the effects of that, but I find it exceedingly difficult to do so.

For me, one thing writing explicit m/m fic does, is give me a way to express and explore my own sexuality without feeling the press of the socio-political. I can co-opt the less complicated sexual freedom men and boys are afforded (at least in the US and England, the two places I have experience living), and claim it as my own through my POV character and the characters they have sex with. This is far from the only reason I write slash, and the reasons are complicated, but it definitely plays a factor.
There are 26 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
poisontaster: (Boykiss)
posted by [personal profile] poisontaster at 01:00am on 21/07/2013
Not too long ago, a friend of mine recommended a het romance to me because it featured a shared kink of ours, spanking. And reading it, I realized it was the first time in a REALLY long time that I'd read a het romance that wasn't fanfic, and it was supremely uncomfortable for me (despite the fairly hot spanking scenes) because I couldn't untangle the fun part of the story from all the creepy and unpleasant patriarchal garbage that I felt came with it. And it is easier for me to read m/m (or even f/f) stories because yeah, it's a way to explore and discover and play with sexuality without having to take on all that other crap with it.
rivers_bend: (women: garcia nails)
posted by [personal profile] rivers_bend at 01:17am on 21/07/2013
I have this problem with m/f romantic comedies, too. I'm okay with high school movies, because the teen garbage comes to the forefront, but find it harder to deal with stories aimed at adults. I am sure there was going to be something in my original post about how much easier it is for me to write m/m than f/f (because I started talking about my mom and she is baffled by this), and i think even when she's with another woman, I find it hard not to get tied up in what my female character is thinking people will think about her if she fucks with abandon. I do much better with original fiction than fan fiction for f/f, I think because it's simpler for me to put original characters into a context where that's not a worry than it is for me to wrench female characters out of their male-dominated canons. idk. I do think it's pretty telling that the easiest f/f I wrote in fandom was Kaylee/Inara, who lived in the future, and were canon sex-positive.
poisontaster: Rizzoli & Isles hugging (R&I Hugz)
posted by [personal profile] poisontaster at 01:46am on 21/07/2013
Yeah, I definitely lost my ability to enjoy most m/f rom-coms, too. (not that there are hardly ANY same sex rom-coms; definitely not nearly enough *sigh*)

I find it hard not to get tied up in what my female character is thinking people will think about her if she fucks with abandon.
I find that really interesting because I feel like that's something that I went through--and eventually had to get over--in my own sex life and so I think when I write female characters (and what I want to read in my characters of either gender, but yeah, especially the female ones) that's the place I'm coming from...and it's the place that I DON'T see addressed very often in m/f romance, which is a huge turn off. But I definitely do wish there were more female characters fucking with abandon. That sounds pretty awesome. :D
pennyplainknits: image of cookie dough (cookieheart)
posted by [personal profile] pennyplainknits at 08:18am on 21/07/2013
For me part of the appeal of reading or writing m/m is that then I don't have to think about all the ways my body doesn't measure up to the standard of female body that has sex. I don't have to worry that my breasts are tiny or my hip bones stick out or my skin isn't perfect or that I don't remove every bit of hair from my body. Even with m/f or f/f fic the female bodies are always better than mine (note how much empasis there is on Vicky-T's boobs in bandom fic for example). So m/m lets me avoid that. Which is probably not the correct answer to give, but it is part of how I feel.
mistresscurvy: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] mistresscurvy at 02:13pm on 22/07/2013
I agree with this completely. I do love writing and reading both m/f and f/f fic, but with m/m there's an entire source of anxiety I can just completely avoid, rather than have to grapple with directly, and that is NICE. You're definitely not alone in that ♥
rivers_bend: (men: gerard paint)
posted by [personal profile] rivers_bend at 10:39pm on 22/07/2013
I think especially in a hobby that is meant to be fun, taking away sources of anxiety wherever possible is useful :)
rivers_bend: (women: cam bed)
posted by [personal profile] rivers_bend at 02:46pm on 22/07/2013
I definitely don't think that is a wrong answer! I mean, it would be super awesome if none of us had a list of reasons why our bodies are "wrong" or not good enough in some way, but I'm pretty sure we all have one of those lists. And it's not even at all off the topic of my post, as shame about what our bodies look like is all tied up in shame about how we use them to express ourselves, or choose not to use them, or would prefer not to use them but do because we feel like we should...

<3333333
 
posted by [identity profile] kryptyd.livejournal.com at 11:41pm on 20/07/2013
I suspect we're coming from the same place. I'm pretty straight and I am a woman interested in dick, but I can't stand straight erotica. I don't mind if there's a hetro sex scene in the narrative of something I'm reading, but if I'm actually trying to read something hot, it has to be F/F or especially M/M. I can't stand the female subjugaction inherent in any hetro erotica I've ever had the misfortune to see. I also hate when one guy is made the substitute girl in gay porn, and made to take all the indignity us girls are supposed to take. I suppose that's why I love f/f and m/m stuff so much. Those old supposations don't mean anything anymore. In fact, I love when they're turned on their head, like when meek looking 5 foot girl controls and dominates big 6 ft+ bodybuilder girl, teehee. Basically I want my porn to reflect a fantasy world where the evil patriarchy never happened.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 05:41pm on 22/07/2013
I just think it's really hard to get context for a relationship that makes it not seem like the woman is 'inferior' to the man in a lot of het porn, whereas there are not really those assumptions implicit in f/f or m/m. I'd definitely read that 5'/6' f/f tho! :D :D
ext_29986: (Nine/Jack kiss)
posted by [identity profile] fannishliss.livejournal.com at 01:20am on 21/07/2013
well put. The urge to slash is so complicated and every time we try to enunciate the various components of that urge, I believe we move forward -- in fandom, as writers and readers, and also politically. So thank you!

As I proceed through life (I am now 45) I am fascinated with the different ways people experience gender and sexuality. I am amazed at the progress we've made in my lifetime! Slash is something special to me because, as you say, the power relationship between men is assumed to be equal, and I want negotiations of power to be explicit in fic, not assumed because of gender. If done right, het can work for me too. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 05:59pm on 22/07/2013
I could honestly spend a hundred years talking about slash and fandom and why we write and read and all of it. It's endlessly fascinating to me. I am much better with het in longfic, because there is a whole relationship context that you can't get with a pwp.
desertport: Kaneda on his bike (cheerleader)
posted by [personal profile] desertport at 02:06am on 21/07/2013
Love it! I was just talking with a couple of other people about this, about why slash is empowering, and you totally nailed some of the reasons behind that. <3
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 05:59pm on 22/07/2013
I could just talk about it forever! I love discussing fandom and writing and why we like to write or read what we like :D
 
posted by [identity profile] runedgirl.livejournal.com at 02:16am on 21/07/2013
Well put. I think that's a large part of the attraction for all women -- it doesn't matter who you're attracted to in RL, it matters that you're female, and we've all experienced the same problematic shaming and some sort of exploitation. Slash is a way of celebrating and exploring sexuality outside some of those problems.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:00pm on 22/07/2013
It would be so great if we could get to a place where we don't have those problems in our social psyche, but we're definitely not there yet!

hey, you <333
 
posted by [identity profile] alizarin-nyc.livejournal.com at 03:03am on 21/07/2013
Word to this. WORD.

Would love any other meta you may write on this topic with regards to women and their sexuality. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:02pm on 22/07/2013
I wish I could remember what else I was going to say! I know I had other things I was thinking of, but apparently I got sidetracked, and it is (hopefully temporarily) gone. I could talk fandom and writing and reading and stuff FOREVER, but I am less good at writing about it than I used to be. Out of practice now that I am not journaling every day.
 
posted by [identity profile] missyjack.livejournal.com at 03:18am on 21/07/2013
mmm interesting thoughts. While my response to "why slash?"is usually "Why not?" but i think it is interesting to ponder when it comes to those of us who's real life preferences are for women. One thing i think is at play is that representations of OUR sexuality are so rare, we become adept at co-opting what is available for our own ends.
we can find a wide range of things that satisfy our desires and i think its awesome that we have created these amazing spaces to indulge ourselves.
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 06:46pm on 22/07/2013
For me it is SUCH a strong preference, that I can't just say "why not" because that leads to asking, "why not m/f or f/f" (at least in fan fic. original is much easier for f/f for me), and then I get posts like this :)

There is definitely a lack of representations (though OMG I started watching Orange is the new Black last night and THE SCENE WITH LEA DELARIA, I BET YOU KNOW THE ONE), but yes. we are masters at adopting what is available. In the mean time I'm gonna keep working on my barriers to writing f/f (because MORE PLZ), and writing m/m :D
 
posted by [identity profile] glambert2169.livejournal.com at 01:56pm on 21/07/2013
WOW! This explains a lot to me! Thank you for posting!
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 10:31pm on 22/07/2013
You're welcome :D
 
posted by [identity profile] desfinado.livejournal.com at 07:01pm on 21/07/2013
Beautifully put! Thanks for sharing ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 10:31pm on 22/07/2013
Thank you! (hi, bb, hi!)
 
posted by [identity profile] halfshellvenus.livejournal.com at 07:42pm on 22/07/2013
is something so politically loaded for women, that it almost feels impossible.

I have the same issue as a straight woman, and it's one of the reasons M/M slash appeals so much to me. A) I find both sides of the pairing hot, and B) The expectations of sexual politics aren't so overwhelming. Whether it's visual or written media, the treatment of women in sexual settings is usually a huge turnoff to me. That whole "male gaze" thing really dominates, and it just doesn't work.

I wonder, does the F/F thing feel too personal for you? Like you might be revealing too much of yourself, or still feel like objectification intrudes, or something else? And if it's the lack of good fanfic pairings, then... what about original fiction? With your writing talents, I can see an opportunity for F/F books written for women that might just be waiting for you. ♥
 
posted by [identity profile] rivers-bend.livejournal.com at 10:38pm on 22/07/2013
I do find it much easier to write original f/f fic, as I'm not trying to work in a world where women often have shitty canon backgrounds, either from the standpoint of them hardly existing, or of the woman being "artfully damaged". There is also not that vast an audience for f/f fanfic compared to m/m, and I can't say I'm not swayed by that. Bar one story though, all the fiction I've sold has been f/f erotica.
 
posted by [identity profile] halfshellvenus.livejournal.com at 11:47pm on 22/07/2013
Bar one story though, all the fiction I've sold has been f/f erotica.
That makes me ridiculously happy. So, you're already succeeding in this area! Plus, getting 'out there' the kind of thing you'd like to read-- that can only inspire other people to read and write, too. :)

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