some thinky thoughts [rivers

eta in case you don't know this about me, I am the most phobic spoilerphobe on earth. So nothing below is based on anything other than where I can see things going based on aired episodes. Also, please no spoilers for future eps in comments.

I don't do much meta, mostly because I feel like the people on my flist say what I'm thinking much more coherently than I do. But I was musing at the bus stop today, and wanted to put it down on pixels (as it were).

I wonder if I would like Supernatural better if I didn't ship Sam/Dean. The idea popped into my head, and I felt shock and horror, but then thought about it a little.

The show for me is pretty much entirely the epic love story of Sam and Dean (thank you Sera). So anything that is threatening to separate them, to make it about anything else, feels like a threat to the show. Not another direction, not a different arc, but a mortal threat.

Which got me thinking about Buffy. What if I had shipped Buffy/Angel? Would Season 2 have felt like the start of a slippery slope and Season 3 felt like betrayal? What if I'd shipped Willow/Oz? Would the introduction of Tara have made my blood boil? In fact, I'd never heard of fandom or ships when I was watching Buffy, and I didn't ship anyone (except Willow/Tara, because OMG LESBIANS ON MY TV!!!). And while there were some aspects of the show I didn't always love, I never felt betrayed or like my show was in danger (from the writers. the networks OTOH...). Well, until S7, but that was another issue.

Then I wondered if the reason I had so much hatred for S3 of House was because I was a H/W shipper. S3 brought us a pretty much unrecognizable Wilson, and his relationship with House was broken. Would I have liked the season better had I not felt like they 'broke' my show?

Now. When I say would I like SPN better? I'm not saying that I no longer like it. It does cause me anxiety that I don't feel about other shows as far as direction. I do feel that there are directions it could go in that would make me feel angry, upset and betrayed. Even directions that it is quite likely to go in.

so.

comments? criticisms? witticisms?

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Dean is NOT going to die.

Just so we're clear on that.

Insofar as Dean is NOT going to die, you don't really have to worry about the brothers being separated.

I've said it, and therefore it's true. *grins*

So, see, nothing to worry about...

Except...are you worried about Sam being more Dean-like? About the fact that he's rather a dark!Sam these days? About the possibility that he's going to go darkside? Do you really think Show will break up the brothers? Because Show has been, from its inception on a sheet of notebook paper in Eric Kripke's back pocket, about brothers. Two brothers, traveling the back roads in a kick-ass car, hunting evil and saving people. I can't imagine Kripke violating the fundamental premise of the show, can you? I mean, can you? What have you heard? *swallows note of hysteria*

You need to stop having thinky thoughts. They're making me edgy.

*hugs*

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first, let me say I have heard NOTHING AT ALL because I am a complete and total spoilerphobe. To the point of getting upset if I see the ep title before airing and go insane if I can't find the remote in time to turn off the next time on SPN bits at the end of the show. So. (maybe I should edit post to reflect that)

I am genuinely worried however that they will change the premise of the show such that it will put Sam and Dean on different sides of a war. Or, not even to that extreme, that the fight will overtake their connection. Where else is this season heading than some apocalyptic disaster for the boys? I want them to drive around on back roads and ~~fuck each other~~ fight evil together. Stronger as a pair than as two men. But that is not what this season is about.

*cuddles you*

I'm sorry I made you edgy.

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No, no, it's okay, luv, really. Thinky thoughts are good. I just spent a good portion of the early part of the day feeling unaccountably sad about Dean and then the latter half of the day (up until the awesome workout, anyway) pissed off at various things in my professional life, so I mostly want someone to pet my OTP and tell me it's pretty and is going to live forever and ever and ever.

I don't think, I mean I REALLY don't think, that Kripke is going to put the brothers on opposite sides of the war. I think that we're going to have the Deus of all ex machinas with Sam's demon blood (and hopefully some fucking explanation FINALLY of why all of Mary's friends and family had to die; and oh, yeah, while we're at it, Kripke, CROATOAN--ring a bell???) saving Dean. I think it's going to look an awful lot like Sam's gone evil and/or Dean's gone to hell. In fact, until the writers' strike, I was pretty sure I knew exactly what the May cliffhanger was going to be. Now, I'm not so sure. But I feel in my bones that Kripke isn't going to Joss us. He just...he can't.

I'm living by this Egyptian river until reality drags me away kicking and screaming.

I'm thinking (mostly) the same way. I just... last night's episode got to me. (also evil hormones of doom)

i am starting to feel like anything could happen. Partly, possibly, because of a serious lack of trust in the network. And I realised that unlike when things didn't go as expected in Heroes, or Buffy suddenly had a WTF sister, if something other than my epic love story starts going on, I will be SERIOUSLY upset. Great Demon War? do not want.

*butts in*

Oh, now I see what you're worried about.

What's funny is that how I see it is this: Yeah, this season has had them more apart than together, and SEEMINGLY growing apart with how Sam is changing, but I keep seeing it pointed out that they ARE stronger and better together. They're never quite able to pull off anything large WITHOUT each other.

I want you to go over every episode and watch the way they function apart, and then take a look at how much it's shown that when they get back together, they become... SUPERBEAST or something less amusing that I can't think of right now. The show, for me, has been highlighting that as far apart as things are taking them from each other, at the end of the day, they are far more proficient when they work as a team.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Your thinky thoughts are made of so much win! It's a perspective I'd honestly never considered, but it makes so much sense. And as for Sam/Dean I think I might even be right there with you, on the same goddamn page. Jo Harvelle, for instance. Not at all a bad character, and portrayed quite well (unlike some females we've seen truly interact with *cough*Cassie*cough*). But I didn't actually come to be fond of her until after reading an interview or something in which Kripke basically confirmed that she was never going to get with Dean. At the time I didn't spare it much thought. Now it makes perfect sense.

Though I will say, I think my dislike of Ruby stands on firmer grounds, since I don't actually see her as much impediment to the brothers' relationship. (And let me take this moment to preemptively state that I HAVE seen last night's episode, just in case you have thinky thoughts to throw back at me that might include spoilers). I just dislike her, both as a character and as the plotwagon. Not sure why I feel the need to make this point, but it makes me feel better somehow.

I'm trying to think of any other shows I would truly have considered myself a 'shipper for, and Angel is about all I'm coming up with. Which, actually, would explain why the seasons in which he alienated everyone around him DID feel so much like betrayal. Not that they wouldn't have felt like betrayal anyway, but I think the dislike hit me as hard as it did because it effectively negated all my preferred 'ships for the fandom.

So. Curse you and thank you for your thinky thoughts, and for making them infect my brain.

That's interesting that you say that about Jo. I never for a moment thought she would get with Dean, possibly because I saw the first season when the second was mostly over on TV, and though I had avoided spoilers, I also had not heard any talk of Dean/Jo. So. I just loved her. But I do wonder what I would have felt about her had I seen her as a viable threat to Sam/Dean.

I disliked Ruby because she had no character, no personality, and all we got of her was Katie's ridiculous poses, up until last night. Now I do actually like her. Except in any context that she might lead to the separation of the boys.

I hope the infection of your brain is not too virulent, honey *g*

I think you are on to something here, River. Sometimes enjoyment of a show can be totally influenced by how much you are emotionally investing in fandom, or shipping of characters - and this can go both ways. It can increase enjoyment, or the reverse depending on storylines, actors leaving the show etc.

On the flipside, sometimes fandom itself (especially when things become political/wanky) can also affect enjoyment.

I was only thinking today how cool it is when shows give fans what they want. Torchwood is doing an excellent job of this at the moment! *g*

It is interesting. I've obsessively loved shows before. Buffy being one, and there are shows I love to watch now, but that I'm not involved in fandom for. Fandom makes me get enthused about aspects of SPN that I wouldn't give two figs about on other shows.

It's strange as well, because it's the only show I watch that I wouldn't be watching were it not for Fandom. (In all likely hood. i might have stumbled across it, but I can't say that I definitely would have.)

RTD is the master of fan stroking :D

You know, I watch House, but I am not part of the House fandom. Therefore, I don't ship anyone in it. And after I read this post, I got to thinking, would that season of House have bugged the crap out of me had I been happily shipping House and Wilson theretofore? Yeah, I could definitely see how the changes in Wilson would have made it a very difficult season for me to watch.
I know this differentiates me somewhat from a lot of the folks on my f-list, but I don't get shippy or slashy about many things. There are shows I watch (have watched), such as House, BSG, Buffy (and Angel) and enjoy - but I am not a part of their respective fandoms, I don't feel the desire to be part of their respective fandoms and really, just feel sufficiently happy with the relationships presented to me on screen. This is what makes SPN such an unusual thing for me, because I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine it as anything else but Sam/Dean, forever and ever, amen. Even when I was active in HP fandom, I didn't have an OTP. I was happily shipping Snape and Narcissa and Lucius and Harry and Draco and Ron and Hermione and Cedric and oodles of combinations thereof - just occasional relationships that struck my fancy. But SPN to me is SamandDean, and their relationship, although I have to admit, I am not at all threatened by "other women" when they are introduced into the show. I have this picture in my head where SamandDean are always SamandDean, and maybe there are other women (and if we bring fanfic into it, other men), because personally, I am not an adherent of the monogamy theory. But they are each other's most important relationship, and that defines the show for me more than anything, regardless of anyone else being thrown in.
Wow, that turned into a lot of tl:dr. Apologies!

That season of House is actually what ripped me from the fandom. I couldn't forgive the 'betrayal'. When I started watching House I didn't ship anyone. Then I found LJ, and stumbled across House Fandom, and started writing H/W and got emotionally involved. Sam/Dean are the only other characters that I've shipped. I slash various pairings, Kaylee/Inara from Firefly, for example, or Catherine/Sara from CSI, Danny/Flack from CSI:NY, but I don't ship them. SPN/J2 is my only fandom. As House was my only fandom at that time. I'll read other fics if I like the author and it pops up on my flist, but I don't seek them out.

I don't feel like the other women on SPN are a threat either, though my somewhat complicated relationship to monogamy theory does mean that I imagine the boys insanely jealous if either of them gets with a woman. On the show, I know that it's only gonna be the two of them in the impala at the end of an episode. I do tend to shy away from fanfic where they're sharing though, because that opens up new possibilities that scare me.

and pish! I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as tl:dr when it comes to replies to my rabbiting on *g*

Such excellent thinky thoughts! I completely agree -- and it's so unusual for me. I've adored other shows before, watched Buffy and Angel obsessively and analyzed them to death, but I have never before *cared* about characters the way I care about Sam and Dean. Never had an "OTP", never even knew what that meant. And it changes the way I watch the show, and my level of investment in the show, significantly. I watch, always, through the lens of 'Sam/Dean', wanting the love I've come to count on between them to be *there*, to be showing.

The first few episodes of this season were painful to watch, seeing the boys so far apart in so many ways. But the deeper into this season we get, the more I can see them pulled back together, and their awareness of how very much they mean to each other (cannot live without you, cannot be *myself* anymore without you) getting closer to consciousness. Show can't ever give us the fanfic Sam/Dean, because they're brothers if not just because they're men (kudos, Torchwood), but I don't think Show will let us down as far as keeping them loving and needing each other no matter what else goes down.

Apart from that, I content myself with knowing I can get on LJ and read the boys the way *I* want them to be, depicted so gorgeously by you and all the other fabulous writers here. Or I can just write them that way myself. *grins*

Hugs,
Lynsey

I have been totally torn by this season. because on the one hand, it's the first one that I've watched in real time. Which is to say, with fans. i didn't even see S2 until July of this past year. So I'm overcome with the squee. But I also have been painfully effected by the boys being pulled apart. Even as they come back together, I fear that they are going to be pulled apart in ways they can't change.

I don't know if part of it is the turn fanfic is taking, too. so much dark Sam and lost Dean...

and hormones. they are also playing a part.

*hugs you*

I get too invested in some characters and I sort of ruin my own favourite tv shows because of it. House, SPN, Eureka, all my favourite shows, it gets to a stage where I would rather just read fanfic where I feel I have some sort of control than watch the actual (new eps) of a show. Sometimes I'd rather watch my 'second level' shows (Battlestar, Lost) where I don't ship anyone, and am not too invested in the characters and am just enjoying the story.

Like you said, sometimes you can love something too much and it causes you anxiety, and anxiety ain't fun!

I'm glad that it isn't just me, and that other people do get so involved. I do often enjoy my 'second level' (that's such a good way of putting it) shows as much as my top ones, just because they are nothing but entertainment.

Oh, hon, it's not just you. I've never watched the last eight episodes of Angel because I didn't want the Whedonverse to be over. I was so heartbroken that it was ending and felt so betrayed by Whedon himself (and I know that's irrational) that I couldn't bring myself to watch the ending. I own those eps. I just haven't seen them. So please, don't feel like you're the only one.

And take into consideration the fact that my worldview--I mean, like, my real-life, real-time worldview--has been radically shaped by my watching and rewatching Season 1 and then Season 2 while on the treadmill reshaping my body, and you can see how desperately I want Show to never end. So please never think you're alone or weird in this, okay?

*hugs*

I couldn't agree more. (In a general way, that is, because I don't do SPN.) I think emotional investment in a pairing or a character, to a certain degree, is a good thing, but when you're invested too much it can easily diminish or even destroy your love for a show.

I think when you're too focused on a certain pairing or character, you keeping seeing nothing but the UST or the actions of the character and the show becomes all about that for you. And then, there's always the chance that the writers will mess it up and go and detroy your pairing or kill off your character, and I don't know about you, but I'm in a constant state of worry that this is going to happen. And I don't even want to know how I react if it actually were to happen, though I'm pretty sure I'd end up never watching the show at all anymore.

Funny you should made this post now, because I was just contemplating the whole thing anyway.

I don't think shipping alters anything at all. I didn't know what fandom was when I watched Buffy. I was obsessed with that freaking show. And yep, I felt betrayed with season 3. I nearly stopped watching when Angel left, and the only reason I started watching Angel was for the crossovers with Buffy. I HATED Tara, and missed Oz like woah (lesbian happiness aside, cuz I was THRILLED that Joss had done that - I just really do not LIKE that girl at ALL. She's a HORRID HORRID HORRID ACTRESS. I mean, wtf. OMG I HAVE AMBER HATE LIKE WOAH), and when Kennedy was introduced, I FINALLY forgave Joss. I had some serious emotions during that show, and it didn't matter who I shipped or what I was feeling - you like the show when it's going well, and you get irritated when it's going badly. Seriously. At least twice every season of Buffy, I felt like Joss had gone against what I thought he should do, but in the end - in the end, things worked out. The entire season 4 - I could have done without. I thought that was one of the single shittiest seasons of television ever, and was quite frankly surprised that they stayed on after that (but omg so happy). I can't ever REMEMBER anything good about S4. I think Faith came back. That was a good. I think maybe that was when Willow started up with the serious witchery. But witchcraft on television always pisses me off, so that wasn't a big thing for me. I'm fairly sure that might have been when Oz came back - or that could have been s5. All I know is that S4 was a major betrayal - and I didn't ship ANYONE, lol.

I don't think shipping anyone makes a difference.

I am NOT a House/Wilson shipper - S3 simply SUCKS (but they'll make it up this Sunday, mark my words, I have faith in everything that gets on TV on Superbowl Sunday).

And season 1, I wasn't in the SPN fandom and didn't ship ANYONE. I didn't even contemplate Sam/Dean until last year, when I came to LJ. And now that I DO ship them, I love the show MORE. Ruby and Bela don't affect it for me. I don't like THEM much, but I love the show more than ever because I think it's getting GOOD.

The show is not going to break up Sam and Dean. It simply isn't going to happen. They ARE the show. Who cares if there are threats? Threats make for good show. You get nervous and worried, but in the end, this is the Sam and Dean show.

I just rambled and ranted, and considering I've yet to have coffee and it's 9 am on SATURDAY, WTF KIDS WAKING ME UP AT 7 AM ON A WEEKEND?!, this might not make sense.

So I'll end with HI! I LOVE YOU! HI!!!

EDIT- Ok - I'm rereading that, and I forgot to actually point out how shipping characters doesn't matter, LMAO. Ok - let me explain. I was mad at Angel leaving NOT because he and Buffy were together (because by that point I was DAMNED TIRED of B/A), but because it was done shoddily and felt rushed. It was the writing and they way they did it that bugged me - not the destruction of the pairing.

With Oz and Willow, yeah it bugged me that they ended that, but it wasn't enough to make me dislike the show or feel betrayed over it.

Um, I think I'm not helping myself to explain myself.

I may be back after coffee.

Edited Date: 2008-02-02 02:09 pm (UTC)

I think the difference is that you like angst. And pretty much? I hate it. As far back as I can remember, I've got upset by anything where the tension in a storyline came from trouble in a relationship I liked. Books, movies, TV, whatever. If there's UST and then it resolves, ok, but if you show me something can be good and then you pull it apart? I get upset. It's how I am. I need my tension to come from external sources if I'm all about the pairing. S'why what you write always breaks me. You're bloody talented, and I love you and that's why I read it, but it breaks me.

So for me, threats to SamandDean don't make for a good show. Unlike threats to Sam and Dean. Throw them around, tie them up, arrest them, I'm all good. but threatening the them of them hurts in a much more fundamental way.

And oh, yes, Season 3 of House did just suck. But so did Season 2 of Heroes. but there I could kind of just think, this is kind of sucking, let's see what happens. With S3 of House, it made me furious. Even though I actually enjoyed Heroes more than House a lot of the time when it was good.

As for Amber Benson? I have a deep and fearsome LOVE for that woman. I think she's amazing and awesome. So we're gonna have to agree to disagree there :)

I do love SPN. I think there is an amazing fusion of writers and actors who get what the others are doing and are capable of, and I fucking believe what's going on. They do a great job with everything from the stunts and effects to the stories and one-liners. But my ability to appreciate what the writers are doing with arc and tension is negatively effected by my shipping Sam/Dean sometimes. I'm too worried about the boys to appreciate what they're doing with the show as a whole.

This doesn't make me want to not ship (it's far too late anyway). It's more a wishing that I could find a way to not let it get to me so much.

You know, I never really considered it before, so wrapped up was I in really hating the first few episodes of this season where the brothers were not connecting, not *together* and feeling how AWFUL that was - but after reading your thinky thoughts I'm beginning to wonder if I enjoyed those moments when they *did* connect again, Sam telling Dean that he's looked up to him since he was four, saying he wanted his brother back, Dean being Dean and acknowledging that by showing Sam how to fix the Impala, those moments that has us all squeeing like schoolgirls *because* Show hadn't pushed them apart. And I'm thinking the answer is YES! Part of what made those moments special to me -and I only see this now - were because the boys had to fight so much to get to the point where they could happen. Which means fighting themselves really and the things they fundamentally need from each other. Admitting finally, out loud, what went unsaid and unacted upon in those early episodes.

So now I'm seeing what I initially hated in a whole different light and I'm also ready to think (maybe:) that if Show did push Sam and Dean apart, put them on different sides of a demon war, that it would/could in no way be a permanent state - that even if it happened they would be desperate to come together again (oh that this might be a literal *coming* together - alas tv and their damn rules about incest and graphic male/male sex in primetime!:) and that my delight in seeing them ultimately reunited would be all the keener for their separation.

As you can tell, I'm all about the anticipation:)) But I really do think Kripke and Co. understand they can't - both in the sense of they shouldn't and that they've written the show such that it would be *impossible* to - change canon now. The boys are meant to be together - period. If they have to overcome obstacles - annoying demon chicks, annoying human chicks, all Hell breaking loose, Dean's ongoing refusal to ~~fuck~~ talk to Sam - to get there, then we'll just enjoy it more when they arrive.

Wow, I almost want to go back and rewatch those annoying first episode now:))

Cheers,
Kat

I think your reaction is exactly how things should be. And that it's what writers want in an audience. It's how I wish I could watch the show. and of course, those moments you mention were as good as they were because of how hard it was to get there. It's fantastic writing. But on one level it feels to me like when the local finally takes effect when they're about to stitch up your arm. it's good to not have the pain, but you REALLY wish you hadn't sliced your arm open to begin with. That added aspect to the thing impinges on my ability to enjoy the great story-telling they are doing.

Not in any way that I would be without my Sam/Dean. Because fandom and writing brings me far far more joy than that aspect of the show brings me pain. I just wish I were less negatively effected by stories that pull apart people I want to see together.

But on one level it feels to me like when the local finally takes effect when they're about to stitch up your arm. it's good to not have the pain, but you REALLY wish you hadn't sliced your arm open to begin with. That added aspect to the thing impinges on my ability to enjoy the great story-telling they are doing.

Yep, I see what you mean. Except for me, I tend to be fascinated by the sliced up arm. "Oh, so *that's* what happens when you get your hand stuck in the garbage disposal!" and I'm caught up in the process. It's certainly the more exciting - if painful - part for me. Perhaps it's too many years of reading Gothic lit - all that exaulting of pain. Perhaps secretly, or not so secretly now, I don't want to see Sam and Dean together. I want to see them wanting to be together, desperate to be together, torn apart by not being together, but *actually* together? I think the story would have to end for me there. And I don't want it to end, so . . .

Might account for the high number of first time stories in the fandom as well. Where do they go from there?

Gosh I'm gloomy this morning!!!

Kat

I think anytime a person’s love for a show focuses heavily on one thing, there’s a danger of losing interest or feeling ‘betrayed’. Your example of Buffy was a good one – the Buffy/Angel shippers had a tendency to hate the show after season three because the reason for their devotion was gone. Others dropped out when Oz left, more still were gone when Tara died. ‘Ships are often fleeting thing, and when you hang your love on a ship, there’s a good chance it will sail away (see what I did there?) I prefer a main character-oriented view of a show, because main characters ar less likely to leave.

Do you love Sam and Dean as individuals, or just the idea of them as a couple? The fact of the matter is, our favorite brothers will never be a cannon ship, but if you love them regardless, you’ll continue to enjoy the show. If not, if it has to be an epic love story, then you’re going to have to fanwank, hope for the best, and acknowledge that your love for “Supernatural” may be fleeting. And I know that’s a lousy, nerve-wracking feeling, but if you do lose interest, then it just fades away painlessly and you move on to something else, right? That’s how it usually works for me.

rivers_bend

some thinky thoughts

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January